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From: Geo. Anderson GEO_A@compuserve.com
Subject: A ? For Ransom Rest Users
Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 8:44 AM
(This is a bit long, so I'll start with the question & follow with thebackground)
-------------------------------------------The Question:
How do I minimize the amount of moving that a gun does when clamped in Ransom inserts? Just twist the
bejesus out of the clamp knobs? Lubricate the rubber to make sure the gun grip slides into a good fit?
Avoid lubrication to keep the grip from sliding around after it's clamped. Or ??
-------------------------------------------
The Background:
I've designed and built my own design machine rest (imho better mechanical accuracy, integral az/el, cheaper to manufacture, etc. plus I didn't have to lay out $500+.), but decided to use Ransom inserts for weapon flexibility. In testing, I have mounted a 9x optical scope on the moving part of the rest and used a 1911 with a dot (Aimpoint Comp) sight. If all is well, the optical scope and the dot should always be pointing at the same place from shot to shot. What I have found is that the machine rest design works very well. The crosshairs of the scope reset to the "X" at 50 yards very nicely from shot to shot.
The inserts are another matter, however. The first shot seems to always move the dot upwards relative to the crosshairs. From that point it is reasonably stable with occasional wiggles probably in the 2" range, but loading a magazine, pulling the (locked back) slide rearwards and releasing it will move the dot up by about the height of the entire black bull at 50 yd. with absolutely no movement of the crosshairs. A bit of wiggling and tugging of the gun against the inserts will reset the dot to the middle, but the whole lashup seems to be plagued with hysteresis whenever the rubber is compressed and released. I am using wing nuts to clamp the inserts -- tightening to about 1/8" gap between them. Ransom uses a much bigger knob, so more torque. I will do that next, but is that the only option? Will it be enough?
On a closely related topic, I have noticed that the group sizes people report using scopes (i.e., Dreyer's page) seem to be tighter than the results from Ransom rest testing. No detailed analysis, just a general impression. Maybe the hysteresis problem is common?
tia,
Geo. Anderson
From: "Dave Salyer" ncfc.4sy@public.nt.js.cn
Subject: Re: A ? For Ransom Rest Users
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:00:13 +0800
Some of the problems can be eliminated by loading six rounds in the magazine and firing the first one very slightly above the target. Then never touch the pistol, (just the rest) except the trigger for the next 5 shots. Then very carefully insert another magazine with 6 rounds. Lower the rest without touching the slide or frame to let the first round go just over the target. Then lower the rest without touching the pistol five more times.I make sure the first shot doesn't hit the paper with the group. I also use two layers of paper to get both 10-shot groups and 30-shot composites. BTW, I do not always get the flier from dropping the slide by hand, especially if I use the slide stop to drop the slide. If you drop it by pulling the slide back, you are more likely to get an occasional flier.
I find no looseness in the grip inserts if I dry and clean the oil from the frame and inserts. do your bolts thru the inserts fit the holes with minimum clearance? Is your slide-to-frame fit tight? Even when stripped of the barrel assembly? (I am assuming you have a slide mounted red dot.) Do you have a good red dot? I had one that would not return the dot to the same place. Do you tighten the grip inserts in the right sequence? Front, top, then back?
Regarding groups shot from sandbags, some of us don't count the shots out of the group by chalking them up as human error. I also, have seen people testing on the RR do the same thing. Also, there is a big difference in five-shot groups, 10-shot and 30-shot groups. 30 shots shows the real capability of the gun and ammo.
We tend to write about our best groups also. All of us who have tested a lot have seen some real big groups, especially when the bullet itself is less than perfect. Just my two cents worth, after a lot of testing.
Dave
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:55:40 -0500
From: Joe Compton jcompton@planetwide.com
Subject: Re: A ? For Ransom Rest Users
George,
Like Dave, I load 6 rounds in the first magazine and fire the first round just above the impact point set with the vertical adjustments on the rest. I then fire 4 rounds, leaving one in the chamber. I very carefully drop the empty magazine, reload it with 5 more rounds and carefully re-insert the magazine. This avoids the shock of the slide locking back and dropping the slide after a magazine change.
Once I setup a pistol to test, I usually put one or more backers behind the test target. If your interested in 30 shot groups or 40 or whatever, just retrieve the backer after the appropriate number of shots. It gives you a good idea of what the pistol will do with a variety of loads.
Joe
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:24:01 -1000
From: Ed Masaki masaki@hits.net
Subject: Re: A ? For Ransom Rest Users
Joe Compton's method is the same way that I test fire guns. Now I use a 10 round magazine to test. But I still leave my last round in the chamber when I change the magazine. After I shoot the 10th round, than I move the adjustment on the machine to shoot the next 10 rounds. This way you don't disturb the functioning of the gun. I have the windage base on my ransom rest also.
If I remember right, back in 1993 or 4 in the small arms firing school at Perry, they mentioned that they loaded the 2nd magazine of 5 while the 5th round is still in the chamber. So as to get the same slide action with each round.
Made sense to me.
ED
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:51:02 -1000 (HST)
From: "Dave Salyer" ncfc.4sy@public.nt.js.cn
To: "Joe Compton" jcompton@planetwide.com, N3df@aol.com
Cc: bullseye-l@lava.net
Subject: Re: machine rests
Joe,
I think the Ransom rest gives a worst case scenario for a given load with a given pistol. I'm convinced that the inherent gun/ammo consistency is slightly better from the hand held pistol. Accuracy is worse because we humans point the pistol to the wrong spot on the target when it is firing. Part of my argument comes from the fact that, when paying close attention I can call the shot location after the firing happens. Then I can verify the location in the scope.
Also, read stories about Bill Blankenship cleaning courses with his old .38 that he later found wouldn't always hold 10-ring from the machine rest. I also believe the rigidity of the machine rest can cause some unwanted vibrations that might be dampened by the hand.
Dave
From: Joe Compton jcompton@planetwide.com
Cc: bullseye-l@lava.net
Subject: Re: A ? For Ransom Rest Users
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:16 AM
> That's fine to get a minimum group size in a test, but doesn't
> correlate to how the gun is shot in a match.
> Neil Friedman
> Boulder, Colorado
Neil,
I've received a couple of posts offlist with the same comment. If you're using a Ransom Rest, you're not trying to produce match conditions. You're either testing a particular load or a pistol with a standard load in order to test the accuracy of the load or the accuracy of the pistol. I have no interest in producing a flyer by duplicating match conditions. I don't know whether dropping a slide in a RR has the same effect as dropping the slide in the human hand. In my experience with the Ransom Rest, once the pistol is settled, it seems to maintain a given point of impact pretty well. That is, the first shot is not always or even usually a flyer.
As to duplicating match conditions, in slowfire I seldom run the pistol dry. I usually fire 4 rounds from the magazine, remove the empty magazine, and replace it with the second magazine. This just takes out one more variable, such as dropping the slide. It may be the nick X you were holding instead of the ten your technique produced.
Joe
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 04:53:35 -1000 (HST)
From: drydarius r young dyoung@concord.televar.com
Subject: RANSOM RESTS
I find the posts on the Ransom Rest of interested. I have been using them off and on since they were first available. I use the Ransom Rest only for the 19ll .45 frames. The use of the rest can affect groups. I try to do every consistantly. I do not use the trigger devise and I place the rest down in the same position with the same pressure from shot to shot. I clamp the rubber grips as tight as I can and still get a magazine in and out. I shoot 5 to 10 shots to settle the rest in before a 10 shot test run. I look for round groups. Vertical groups could be do to the rest its self. The Ransom Rest use takes some trial and error work to find out which is the best method.
All other pistols I test in a 100# vise using lead jaws and clamping the barrel. This method will tell you what your barrel will shoot. Using the Ransom Rest you introduce the slide/frame error.
After testing with above methods I then test with sand bags to get the out of the hand groups. Sometimes my sand bag groups are better that the vice or Ransom Rest. Also this method allows me to get the correct sight settings for 50 and 25 yards. Before I go to a major competition I always double check the accuracy and sight setting using the sand bag method. This has a very positive psychology effect in knowing what your pistol/ammo is capable of doing prior to a match.
Darius Young
At 12:14 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Randy Pafford wrote:
>One thing I have noticed when using the machine rest is that some grip
>Randy
When I test fire guns on the ransom rest I always shoot a minimum of 15
rounds over the target to seat the rest in place. I don't recall haveing
a 1st shot flier before. I have since changed my practice and shoot the 1st round
like over the target. That would be the 15th round with a new magazine in place to
shoot for a group. I read somewhere that you can over tighten the 3 nuts that
would affect the function of the gun. I think Clark wrote that story.
I once shot 50 rounds without touching the gun. The 1st bullet hit in the center and by the
time I finished the 50 rounds the groups where by the top of the target. It means
that the pistol is slowly moveing in the rubber grip. It was a straight upwards
climb. My ransom rest was a old one with the grips hard like a rock. I have since
changed them. Is there any more suggestions that I can try to learn about my
machine? I am off to the range tomorrow to test bullets out.
ED
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 22:03:52 -1000
To: Randy Pafford
Subject: Re: Pistol Bullets
>My experience is the same as yours. I find no tendency for the first shot
>from a magazine to be out of the group (I always scope the first shot to
>verify this). If the first shot from a magazine IS out of the group, then
>you are screwed when actually using the gun in a match, since as you point
>out, you can't avoid at least ONE first shot per string. In fact, it
>strikes me that a gunsmith testing a newly built gun should verify that the
>first shot from the gun is NOT out of the group.
>inserts will be tight enough so that to release the magazine, you have to
>press hard enough on the frame to slightly disturb the seating. The grip
>inserts should be trimmed in that situation to allow the magazine release
>to move freely. In fact, it is my suspicion that many "first shot flyers"
>from a machine rest are due more to changes introduced in the gun's seating
>by the act of dropping a mag, inserting another mag, and dropping the slide
>than by instrinsic problems in the gun.
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