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45 ACP Loads

Be aware that the consensus seems to be that Bullseye has changed over the years, with older Bullseye being slightly hotter. Here is some data from Bruce Martindale

Here is a link to some more 45ACP data, though it's not specifically directed towards bullseye:
M.D. Smith's Reloading Pages
And here is a link to a lot of Model 1911 information, again not specifically directed towards bullseye:
The 1911 Page

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From: TEG51@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:46:59 EST
Subject: Re: Care to share your favorite .45 Target loads ?

4.0 WST behind a 200 gr bullet with WW primers. You can go plus or minus .2 grains with the powder. For 50 yds 4.2 worked the best. My gunsmith uses 231, 4.7 grains with the same bullets and has guns that shoot 1.5 inch. I have some 185 lead bullets from Magnus which will be tried this spring that are suppose to be really good, this is what a few shooters I know have told me. Terry of Magnus is a fellow list member so ask him about these bullets and what to load them with, OAL etc.

Tom Ginovsky

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From: TWD74@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:33:41 EST
Subject: Re: Care to share your favorite .45 Target loads ?

4.2 grs V V #310 behind a 185gr D&J SWC, Starline Brass, and Fed Primers. When I first got my gun it shot about 1 3/8 at 50 yds out of the Ransom Rest. My gun is a Les Baer with a slide mounted UltraDot. The load is a bit stout but thats what it takes for reliability. I used the same recipe except for 3.6-3.7 grs V V in my Springfield that was also very accurate and very reliable. Very soon I will be testing some Star Swaged 185gr HPSWC's that showed great promise off a sand bag. They have the white match lube and are the cleanest lead bullets I have used. They even cut very clean holes in the target at 50 yards. They were loaded the same as the D&J's above.

Bob

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From: "Mathis House" dwmathis@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:12:04 -0000
Subject: re: Care to share your favorite .45 Target loads ?

4.15 Bullseye, pushing a 200 gr. H&G 68 LSWC.

That combination on my gun means not having to adjust sights between the 50 and 25 yard line.

(I actually do measure to 4.15. That measure is taken by throwing 10 charges on a scale that should come to 41.5)

BYW I use a slide mounted Ultra Dot.

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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:00:48 -0700
From: Jeffh jeffh@rapidcity.com
Subject: My .45 Load

I am currently using 3.7 grains of VV N310 behind a 200 grain LSW. I have always used CCI primers and have had good luck with them. I have also had good luck with 5.3 grains of Universal Clays behind a 200 grain LSW. 3.7 grains of Bullseye has always performed well. 3.5-3.6 grains of AA #2 is a good load. I have never cared for 231(HP38). 5.5 grains of AA #5 is a good load but dirty. I have also used VV N320, Clays, and WSL. I need to experiment a little more with these three powders. WSL seems to be very good powder. It probably is and has been discontinued.(I only have a pound.)

I know I will catch a little heat for not liking 231(HP38). Ha By the way I use WW brass for my match rounds. Mixed brass for practice.

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From: "Ozinga, D.J." d.ozinga@BOUW.TNO.NL
Subject: RE: My .45 Load
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:06:43 +0100

I use 6,5 grains VV N340, CCI primers and a 200 grs H&N High Speed SWC, FYI I use a HK mk23, with a 6 inch barrel.

Can someone tell me why most people use N310 for their .45's. Has it to do with the barrel length, since most barrels are shorter than 6 inch. (N340 is slower than N310.)

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From: swain@lexmark.com
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:56:46 -0500
Subject: RE: My .45 Load

3.6 gr Bullseye, 185 gr Star solid, military brass, Federal primer. Iron sights.

How about mentioning whether you use slide-mount optics when sharing your loads with us? In most cases it's probably obvious from the load data, but occasionally not so.

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From: "Chin, Cary" cjchin@sandia.gov
Subject: RE: Care to share your favorite .45 Target loads ?
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:09:15 -0700

My load is the old standard, 3.5 grains of Bullseye, 185 grain cast bullet, Winchester primers, GI or commerical brass, loaded on a Star tool. Hope this helps.

cary

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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:33:02 -0600
From: Joe Compton jcompton@planetwide.com
Subject: .45 Loads

Slide mounted Ultradot.

50yds.
4.0 gr. 700x, 200 gr. H&G 68, usually mixed brass, Fed primers
3.8 gr. Royal Scot(hard to find), Same Bullet, as above
4.0 gr. VV 310, Nosler 185 (jacketed), WW cases, Fed. primers

If you weigh the 68's and examine the bases, the bullet will shoot consistently 2" or so. If you don't, they will still shoot 10 ring. Depends on what you want to do. The little Nosler will shoot inside the x ring in a good pistol.

25 yds.
4.0 gr. 700x, 185 gr. H&G 130, usually mixed brass, Fed primers
3.8 gr. Royal Scot(hard to find), Same Bullet, as above

Good luck,

Joe

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From: jimmygun@webtv.net (Jim Kerr)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:26:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 45 loads

I use 3.6 gr bullseye for 25 and 50 yards using Lyman 200 gr swc. And a slide mounted aim point (why aim point) because stupid me bought 4 of them and I've never had any problems, yet. I've had them for probily 10 years as the saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

Jim Kerr JIMMYGUN@WEBTV.NET

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From: "Rob Hatfield" 94stang@voicenet.com
Subject: Re: Care to share your favorite .45 Target loads ?
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:09:26 -0500

Currently using 200 grain SWC bullets over 4.0 grains of Bullseye with Federal primers.

Rob

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From: Rick10010X@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:11:47 EST
Subject: Cold Weather Shooting With VV N310 and VV N320

I was startled with the report a week or so ago from someone on the list which indicated that VV N310 may not perform well in cold weather. I apologize to the reader who submitted his data. I failed to retain his report.

I decided to take advantage of some late winter cold weather here in Knoxville and test some of my favorite loads. The following are data from 10 shot groups fired today at my club at Oak Ridge. My gun and ammo had been left in an unheated garage overnight and the firing was done with the temperature in the mid-30s. Measurements were taken with an Oehler 35 chronograph. Federal brass and Winchester primers were used throughout

Load #1: 200 gr. Dillon swaged LSWC, 4.6 grs N320 Load #2: 185 gr, Remington JSWC, 4.3 grs. N310 Load #3: 200 gr. Star swaged LSWC. 3.9 grs N310 Load #4: 185 gr. Nosler JHP, 4.1 grs. N310

I fired one 10 shot group of Load #1, my favorite indoor 50 ft. load as it cuts such a beautiful hole and makes scoring so easy, just for the added data. The other three loads were fired in three 10 shot groups. Nothing for accuracy. I know that all of these loads perform very well. E = Extreme variation in fps. M = mean velocity in fps. S = Standard Deviation in fps.

Load #1: E = 0083 M = 0753 S = 0030

Load #2: E = 0028 M = 0828 S = 0009

Load #2: E = 0077 M = 0828 S = 0023

Load #2: E = 0099 M = 0828 S = 0020

Load #3: E = 0056 M = 0775 S = 0017

Load #3: E = 0036 M = 0766 S = 0012

Load #3: E =0052 M = 0763 S = 0016

Load #4: E = 0113 M = 0753 S = 0032

Load #4: E = 0124 M = 0756 S = 0037

Load #4: E = 0087 M = 0755 S = 0030

Based on these data without considering accuracy on target one would have to conclude that the lead Star is superior to the jacketed bullets, and among the jacketed, the Remington is superior to the Nosler. I have a hard time understanding why the Nosler is inferior to the Remington with respect to extreme variations in velocity. I intend to repeat these tests when the weather gets warm and see if these differences in performance are weather related.

I'd be interested in the reaction from those on the list.

Rick Miller

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rduke@essex1.com
Subject: Re: [RELOAD-L] VihtaVouri 45acp loads?
Date: Wed 3/3/99 8:02 PM

David Hartman wrote:
> Has anyone worked up 45acp loads using VihtaVouri powder. I've heard
> VV310 is an excellent choice. Any suggestions?

A recent issue of Shooting Sports USA (for NRA-classified competitors) had an article about the Marine's .45 load. It is:

4.1 gr VV N310
185 gr Nosler JHP
New Winchester primed brass
1.20" overall length
approx 800 fps

They say this load chews up the 10 ring on the 50 yard target when fired from a machine rest. If a test gun doesn't perform, it's rebuilt. They don't diddle around trying another load.

Mixed results were reported using previously fired cases with Win primers. One test showed about the same performance as new, while another test gave much better results with new stuff.

I know what I'll use.....

Richard Duke

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From: john lewis [jlewis16@ixlmemphis.com]
Subject: Re: [RELOAD-L] VihtaVouri 45acp loads?
Date: Wed 3/3/99 8:19 PM

David Hartman wrote:
> Has anyone worked up 45acp loads using VihtaVouri powder. I've heard
> VV310 is an excellent choice. Any suggestions?

4.5 grains of VV310,200 grain swc 850 fps in a gm according to Bill Wilson

John Lewis

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KARLRY@aol.com
Subject: Re: .45 Loads
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:11:09 EST

In a message dated 04/03/99 5:06:38 PM Canada Central Standard Time, tapep@epix.net writes:

> Nosler HP and 185gr. Star SWCHP. Of particular interest would
>be the over-all length with the Noslers. Tim: The Marine load is an OAL of 1.2" & 4.1 gr. of VVN310. It works and that's what I use. Karl

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From: drydarius r young dyoung@concord.televar.com
Subject: Re: .45 Loads
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 17:32:15 -0800

List Members:

I have recently been working up some loads with the .45 Nosler HP which I also Moly Coated. Powder type does make a difference. I tried AA#2, VV310 and some old 452AA. The later is replaced by WST. My .45 with a scope on it requires 4.2gains to work the slide. I get about 725'/sec using Federal Cases, Remington Primers and 452AA powder. I have been getting around 1.6" groups at 50yards. By keeping all varibles the same and using other powders the accuracy falls off to more than 2" groups. I have not tried all the possible powders but this would be an interesting experiment. I did my loading with a Star machine with a OAL of 1.2"

Darius Young

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From: "jvkrash" jvkrash@snet.net
Subject: Federal Gold Match Recipe
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:53:52 -0400

Federal once fired brass, Federal std primers, 4.5gr Bullseye, Remington 185gr fmj swc, 1.1650" oal, .472"crimp. I have also chronied this load using 4.0gr clays and and got 770fps and excellent accuracy.

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From: Douglas Maxwell dmaxwell@tde.com
Subject:Load for Star 185 gr. LSWCHP
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:23:29 -0600

This will probably start some list members howling, but I have had great success with the following load for the 25 yard line

Bullet: Star 185 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point
Powder: 3.5 grains Bullseye
Cases: Don't matter (except my dies are too loose for RP)
Primer: Remington, Winchester or Federal (my Star loader doesn't feed CCI's well)

I think Steve Locatelli has experimented with these bullets at 50 yards and reported some results in a previous post, but I will let him comment on that.

Note that you may need to raise the powder charge by one or two tenths of a grain if your pistol is tighter than mine. Typically, you will need 0.2 grains more Bullseye for the soft swaged bullets than the same weight in hard cast.

Do Not Tumble these bullets after loading, the nose cavities fill up with media and dump it into your pistol, causing malfunctions. (voice of embarassed experience)

Have Fun shooting
Doug Maxwell

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From: Dave Salyer ncfc.4sy@public.nt.js.cn
Subject: Loads for Rem. 185 gr JSWC
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:28:32 +0800

Use 4.5 grains of Bullseye and load your round to the length that exposes about 1/32" of shoulder. Use this load for both distances. Recoil will not be excessive with the jacketed .451" bullet and Bullseye will not be so dirty if your load is between 4.4 and 4.6.

Lighter loads do not produce efficient burning resulting in the residue many people talk about.

Hard cast .452" bullets require less powder than jacketed .451" for a given velocity and good accuracy.

Hope this helps,
Dave

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From: Michael Dane mike@eprints.com
Subject: Loads for Rem. 185 gr JSWC
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:01:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

Try this:

Bullet: Remington 185 gr. JSWC match
Charge: VV N310, 4.2 gr.
OAL: 1.170

I use Federal brass and primers, but I doubt it matters much. Crimp is just a bit more than is necessary to iron out the casemouth flare.

This load functions 100 percent in my Rock River wad gun with 1-inch UD mounted to the slide with a Clark mount. I believe my recoil spring is 12 lb.

Accuracy is excellent.

By the way, these bullets are actually .452 in diameter, not .451. It says so right on the factory box, and the calipers bear it out.

-Mike

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From: Bob Joyce TWD74@aol.com
Subject: Loads for Star 185 swhp
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:01:36 EDT

I shoot these bullets exclusively now (with the white match lube) and love them. They shoot 1.5" groups at 50yds out of the Ransom Rest and I don't even have to weigh them!

185gr Star SWHP
3.1gr. Vectan Ba10(Noblesport) powder
Federal LP primers
Starline Brass

Not sure of the exact OAL but just make the finished round .003-.005 shorter than the hood when using the barrel as a gauge.

This load shoots very soft and functions my Les Baer better then the 4.1gr V V 310 that it took for the V V to be reliable and was a hot feeling load compared to the Ba10. Try it, you'll like it!

Bob Joyce

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From: Ray Ciurej rkfam@prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Magnus bullets
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:24:58 -0400

And speaking of Magnus Bullets...

The other day, I loaded-up some Magnus #801 (.45 ACP, 185 gr) bullets with 3.7 gr of Clays. Wow! Great load! Functioned great at the short line and was impressively accurate at the long line. I was shooting off-hand so I can't give precise accuracy details but, they were landing _exactly_ as called!

Regards
Ray Ciurej

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From: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:57:36 -0700 (PDT)

ALL, I'm sure this has been done before. But I was out when the professor lectured that day. I would like to collect a list of loads I can use with the STAR SWAGED 185GR Semi Wadcutter Hollow Point bullet with the match lube.

I'm shooting a Kimber Custom with a 10 pound recoil spring and a slide mounted 30mm UltraDot Scope. I also have a 12 pound spring, Bullseye, W231, 700X powders and Winchester primers. I can get other powders and primers if recommended.

Please include the Overall Length and Tapered Crimp Diameter if applicable. If case length is an important factor, include that too.

Please respond to me directly so we don't clog up the system. I'll be happy to make the collected data available to all. Include your name, first is OK, city and state. Thank you, George Cassidy Kennesaw, GA USA ============================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:19:19 EDT
From: Slocat@aol.com
To: lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!

George, My gun has a Kart 5" barrel with a slide mounted scope. With the Star 185 gr. swaged HP, I use 3.8 gr. of VN310. On my constant force taper crimp die, I use 4.5 lbs. at the 18X station. This results in crimps in the .470 to .471 range.

I never measure overall length. Instead I make sure that about 1/64" of the bullet shoulder extends out of the brass. This way the loaded round is never too short or too long. This load is light shooting and recoiling and is accurate. I average 2.0' groups at 50 yards.

Slo cat
=============================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:23:29 -0600
From: Douglas Maxwell: dmaxwell@tde.com
Subject:Load for Star 185 gr. LSWCHP

This will probably start some list members howling, but I have had great success with the following load for the 25 yard line Bullet: Star 185 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point Powder: 3.5 grains Bullseye Cases: Don't matter (except my dies are too loose for RP) Primer: Remington, Winchester or Federal (my Star loader doesn't feed CCI's well)

I think Steve Locatelli has experimented with these bullets at 50 yards and reported some results in a previous post, but I will let him comment on that. Note that you may need to raise the powder charge by one or two tenths of a grain if your pistol is tighter than mine. Typically, you will need 0.2 grains more Bullseye for the soft swaged bullets than the same weight in hard cast.

Do Not Tumble these bullets after loading, the nose cavities fill up with media and dump it into your pistol, causing malfunctions. (voice of embarassed experience)

Have Fun shooting
Doug Maxwell

============================================================================ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:01:36 EDT
From: Bob Joyce: TWD74@aol.com
Subject: Loads for Star 185 swhp

I shoot these bullets exclusively now (with the white match lube) and love them. They shoot 1.5" groups at 50yds out of the Ransom Rest and I don't even have to weigh them!

185gr Star SWHP 3.1gr. Vectan Ba10 (Noblesport) powder Federal LP primers Starline Brass Not sure of the exact OAL but just make the finished round .003-.005 shorter than the hood when using the barrel as a gauge.

This load shoots very soft and functions my Les Baer better then the 4.1gr V V 310 that it took for the V V to be reliable and was a hot feeling load compared to the Ba10.

Try it, you'll like it!
Bob Joyce

=============================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:39:16 –0400
From: The Glitz Family nglitz@earthlink.net
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!

George, Well, sounds like not a lot of people jumping on this one. I don't use the Star, but how different a load could it be from any other 185gr SWC? First, the bullet's got to fit your barrel. 0.001" larger than bore diameter is the accepted standard.

Powder charge: start with 4.0 of Bullseye and play. I'm using 4.1 of WSL (discontinued) with a slide mounted dot and a 10 pound spring. The brass just dribbles out the side of the gun. If I set my straw hat upside down on the bench next to me, it catches about 30% of the brass. The rest is on the floor next to me. Maybe I should get a bigger hat.

OAL is what fits your mags and chambers in your gun. Same for crimp, but .470" is a good place to start. The less, the better.

Any primer that your gun lights off reliably. I like Federals.

Case length? Never yet seen one as long as the spec of 0.898" Just went to the ammo locker and measured two brands on new match hardball. Consistently .894" Don't worry about it.

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but maybe it'll spark someone off. Obviously, you meet Kennesaw's most famous gun law.

Norm
============================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:43:54 EDT
From: TWD74@aol.com
To: lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!

Look no farther. Here is THE LOAD! Starline Brass Federal Large Pistol Primer Star 185grSWCHP w/white match lube 3.1 to 3.3 grs. of Vectan Ba10 powder

I bought the Vectan from Graf and Sons. It was about $112 for 8 pounds not including shipping and hasmat. It comes in one pound containers but heck, I'll eventually use it! I bought it because it was supposed to be the same as VV #310, only less expensive. Well, it's not as clean but I use 3.1grs to equal reliable functioning that 4.1grs of V V #310 was giving me.

I use 3.1grs which is a mild load with a speed of 748FPS. Cycles my slide mounted UltraDot very well in all weather although I might bump it up to 3.3 for T&R in the fall just in case.

Using 3.1 grs., my gun shot 1-3/8" groups with 7 shots in one hole and 3 "fliers" for most of the groups.

The only problem is I have no excuses! By the way, I use a 12lb spring with this load.

Bob Joyce Watertown, CT =============================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:22:03 –0400
From: Matthew Vandeweghe mvandewe@columbus.rr.com
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!

George, I shoot a Rock River Arms pistol with a 12 (?) pound spring and slide-mounted 1" UltraDot. The load that I've been shooting on both the long and short lines is: Star 185gr LSWCHP (black-lubed), seated to an OAL of 1.235" 4.2 grains of Hodgdon Titegroup powder (I'm experimenting with 4.1 to see if it functions OK.) Federal 150 primer A case from whichever batch I'm using (currently PMC) taper crimped to 0.470".

I don't worry about case length; it doesn't seem to vary enough to make a difference. If you do a side by side test of the ordinary Star bullets and the ones with the white "match lube", I'd be interested in the results.

Matt Van De Weghe Columbus, OH =============================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:39:50 –0400
From: Dave Salyer bullseye@cetlink.net
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE LOADS!

I suggest you use 4.3 gr. bullseye for best accuracy. Dave =============================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: CJ PurpleFoot@excite.com
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA" lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] ARE WE DONE WITH "SHOW ME THE LOADS"

George, I shoot Star .45 cal 185 SWC HP Special Match in my Masaki made 1911 with Kart barrel. I get 1.5x1.5 or better at 50 yards.

Star 185gr SWC HP Special Match
WCC Match 90 Brass
VV N310 4.00gr
Federal Primer
1.245 OAL
0.469 taper crimp =============================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:11:15 -0400
From: bobkathylangham@worldnet.att.net
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE STAR LOADS - RESPONSE:

Currently shooting Star 185gr SWC HP w/standard lube at 3.9 gr BE. I have some match lube, but haven't loaded any yet. =============================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:02:22 -0600
From: Bob Fleming Bob.Fleming@worldnet.att.net
To: George Cassidy, Kennesaw, GA lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE STAR LOADS - RESPONSE:

Hi George, Sorry that I have not sent you a load yet, I am currently testing 50 yard loads.

My very successful 25 yard load, with which I have shot several 880's indoors, is 3.4 grains BE powder, win. primer, any 45 brass on hand and Star 185 HP with the white lube.

I make the over all length so that the round only just barely will drop into the barrel and be flush with the hood. On my Clark this is also very close to the max length that will go in the magazine and not hang up.

I am currently designing a new powder funned/expander and a new style seater for the Dillon and the prototype looks good.... more later. Please send a copy of the loads you have received.

thanks,
Bob Fleming
============================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:46:47 EDT
From: Cofront@aol.com
To: lootlam@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] SHOW ME THE STAR LOADS - RESPONSE:

Presently I have been using their 200gr SWC over 4.6gr of Win.231. Been working very satisfactorily up to 25yds. Have not used at 50yds yet.

Regards,
Fred
=============================================================================
AND NOW THE GUY THAT TURNERED ME ON TO THIS STAR BULLET:

Last November I had the honor to shoot next to Gil Munoz. Gil is a master shooter and all round good guy. At that time I hadn't started reloading again. (I reloaded back in the 70s.) So I was using off the shelf reloads. Gil noticed the box of reloads and advised me that these loads are probably too hot for bullseye shooting. (The reloads were loaded at 900 FPS.) So Gil loaned me a box of his reloads to shoot in a match that day.

The first three rounds scored 30-1X at 50 yards. HELLO!! This got my attention right away. I realized I better start reloading real soon. Gil's load data: Star Swaged Lead 45cal 185gr SWC H/P W/Match lube Win 231 powder 4.6 grains The rest of the load data I didn't get from Gil.

Good luck to ALL, George Cassidy Kennesaw, GA USA

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From: bruce.martindale@ps.ge.com
Subject: [bullseye-l] bullseye OLD vs NEW
Date: Tue 6/20/00 3:40 PM

Not that this matters but for general interest, the old Hercules Bullseye powder DOES have more snap than the new stuff. I had this impression based on recoil but here is the proof. One evening, I loaded 2 sets of ammo with the same batch of commercial (CP) bullets; one with Hercules, one with Alliant. I shot them over a chronograph in alternating order old, new, old, new to reduce effects of heating etc. Here is what I found:

Old: 720 avg 11.6 Sd
New 692 avg 11.2 Sd

Old: 727 avg 23.8 Sd
New 714 avg 9.0 Sd

The charge is 3.8 or 3.9 gr (whatever my 0.43 setting on my Lee press throws). Either one shoots very well and I will continue using both as I can't get the Hercules stuff anymore.

Aside: For Hardball, 4.6gr does not duplicate factory velocity even with the really old stuff (1960's) in the 11 Oz steel snap top can (I get 750fps).

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