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45 ACP Miscellaneous Lore
Norman Johnson [njohnson@marlin.spawar.navy.mil]
Subject: [RELOAD-L] Reloading Lead Cast Bullets for 45ACP
Date:Tue 4/20/99 7:27 PM
>I am having difficulty chambering shells reloaded with Lasercast 230gr
>Roundnose bullets. The shells fit in the chamber, but headspace long, so the
>slide does not close all the way. The case length is fine. Do I need to seat
>these bullets so that the ogive "rim" is even with, or below the case rim?
>This leaves a pretty short bullet. Any help to this new reloader is
>welcome!!!
If your's is a 1911:
The .45ACP 1911 was designed by John Browning to headspace on the case mouth but in fact it rarely works this way. The case head is really held against the bolt by the extractor. To prove this to yourself, measure the length of a dozen .45ACP cases. You will discover that the cases are ALL (even newly manufactured ones) considerably shorter than SAMMI specs call for. The resultant headspace would be FAR greater than the maximum allowed, yet the ammo shoots fine with no stretching of cases or incipient head separation, even after many firings. The identical conditions in a rifle would be disastrous.
Since 1911 barrels from Colt and other suppliers are normally chambered longer than necessary, and with the additional complication of the short cases, some of us seat our bullets to a length that allows the cartridge to headspace on the bullet.
This approach allows for a more consistent firing pin strike and therefore a more consistent powder burn. Accuracy is dependent upon consistent ignition more than many shooters realize; a good reason, incidentally, to keep the firing mechanism of pistols clean. Modern rifles, having a much stronger firing chain, are not quite so subject to congealed lubricants and embedded dust.
To accomplish the above headspacing approach, remove the barrel from your 1911 and then alternately seat the bullet deeper into the case and drop it into the chamber until the case base is just flush with the lip that protrudes from the barrel. Do this with each bullet type that you use in that firearm and either record the OAL or keep a dummy round as a reference. If you seat the bullet too far out the pistol will not lock up properly and therefore will not fire when the trigger is pulled.
God Bless!
Norm
Weber [nicweber@vcn.com]
Subject: [RELOAD-L] Procedure for finding an accurate load
Date: Wed 3/31/99 9:21 PM
I start with good cases, winchester or federal, norma if you have the bucks. Bullets are the biggest factor, then powder, primers last. The best way would be to have a press and powder measure mounted on a saw horse. The scale needs to be out of the wind. Even on a calm day out in the open the scale will bounce all over. I put mine, with a powder trickler in a box on its side in the back of the pick-up. Shim it up so that it is level ( the box ). Then level the scale.
Now with a bunch of primed cases in your reloading blocks and a solid bench with sand bags your ready to start. We are concerned with finding out what the rifle or pistol and ammo will do, not our shooting skills at this time, hence the bench an bags. I make my bags out of old pant legs filled half way with sand and tied of with twine.
Use the recommended powder that a couple reloading books agree on for the particular bullet weight. Then load up 5 cartridges with that bullet- powder combo using a load in the middle of min. and max.. Fire the rounds and record on the target the load. Using multiple bullseyes on the target continue this procedure with different bullet weights until you find the bullet that weapon likes.
Once you figure out the bullet try different powders ( using your manual ) until you find the one most accurate. Then go up or down in .5 grain increments ( don't go over max. ) to find the best powder load.
Once you figure all this out, if you have some unprimed cases with you, try different primers. If the load you have selected is near max., back off a grain or two of powder before switching primers. Then, watching for signs of excessive pressure, work your way back up.
Record every change you make on the target with the group. Once you find the most accurate load record it in your reloading manual. Do not change ANY components. Different makes of brass will produce different pressures. Having everything there where you will shoot will save a lot of time, ammo, and wear on your barrel. If any one has a better way I would sure like to hear it.
Mike
P.S. This is using the recommended over all length in your manual. If you want to try different seating depths, again, back off on the powder. Bullets seated near or touching the lands will increase pressure dramatically.
Mike Snyder msnyder@delrio.com
Subject: Re: Reloading Question - 45 acp
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:11:14 -0600
Rtlflorida@aol.com wrote:
> I am new to reloading... the data says max cartrige length should not exceed 1.275 but
> there are no minimums except the .888 - .898 shell length for accurate
> head spacing. Am I correct on this?
> Bob
Bob,
You are correct. I would highly recommend the NRA reprint entitled "The .45 Automatic". It costs a couple of bucks from the NRA bookstore. It is only 20 pages, but is full of good info about the M1911 and reloading for it. I agree with almost all of it, but I do disagree with their recommendation of roll crimping rather than taper crimping. I'll quote a portion of an article entitled "Handloading the .45 ACP". It says, "Most lead-alloy wadcutter bullets designed for the .45 ACP cartridge lack the crimping groove customarily found on revolver bullets. Therefore, the case mouth must be crimped into the smooth side of the bullet near the top edge of the body. A little lead should extend above the case mouth. The exposed lead acts as a lubricant against the barrel feed ramp and also engages the rifling when the round is fully chambered. This tends to reduce the cartridge end play within the chamber...(part deleted)...The amount of bullet shoulder exposed will largely depend upon the hardness of the alloy used but should not be so great that the slide fails to close completely. Bullet seating depth should be determined experimentally according to the individual gun and bullet design."
In another article entitled ".45 ACP Handload Accuracy" by Alton S. Dinan, Jr., he says, "The semi-wadcutter bullet, The only one considered here, should be seated out of the case about .015"-.025" and the case crimped into the bullet shoulder."
I agree with the above. I would also throw in my practice, that I learned from Texas gunsmith and master shooter Buddy Chapman. I use a taper crimp of around .470". I use a dial caliper to determine this.
Mike
Bullseye Rules!
From: Will Hart whart@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] Cross Eye Shooting
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:56:06 -0500
Mike -
It's true that I'm a cross dominant shooter, and there are plenty of others, but Erich Buljung is not among them. He's right/right. Roberto DiDonna, Olympic gold medalist and world cup champion is cross dominant, as was a shooting member of the '96 Olympic Team. Being cross dominant need not hinder success in the shooting sports. Ted Williams may have found it to be an assett in batting, but I find it neither an asset nor a liability in shooting.
One thing that you mentioned, and I encourage all cross dominant shooters to do, is to turn the gun in the hand (to the right, for right hand, left eye shooters) so that the sights give a good natural point of aim without turning the wrist. Fix the grips so the grip position is consistant and repeatable. Turning the wrist will give inconsistant results, especially during sustained fire, when the gun wants to recover into a natural, neutral position.
Play the hand you've been dealt the best you can.
Will
From: Benjamin McLeod bennnancy@erols.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] slow fire
Date:Sat, 13 Nov 1999 02:17:45 -0800
Wimpgunner wrote:
>
> Maybe Benjamin McLeod will share his slowfire process with you.
> I found it worth 4-6 points immediately.
Wow, thanks, I'll have to try it again myself! [g]
I usually take close to 15 minutes for 20 shots at our .22 league. You can't use all the time or you will begin to feel rushed and shoot poorly, but if you shoot too quickly then you will either be spending too little time on the shot (missing early shots), or too little time between shots (missing later shots after you get tired). I definitely shoot better when shooting a little faster than usual, but I am sure the above statement reverses cause-and-effect: when I am shooting well, I can get the sights on target and fire the shot immediately so I get done sooner; but when having difficulty, the shots take more time and I get done later.
In free pistol, when you get to change your own targets or use electronic targets that don't need changing, you get a solid 2 hours to fire 60 shots plus as many sighters as you like. This allows for picking a time when the wind and/or rain are lighter, or resting between groups, or whatever you like. Actual firing time at the USA national championships varies from 1/2 hour to making the last shot literally right as the 2 hours expires, and absolutely nobody had any objection to the time being spent.
When you spend $1000.00 for a pistol (or more than that each for several), take a week off from work to fly to another state, and enter what for most people is the biggest match of a lifetime (certainly the biggest I have been in by far), saving a few minutes during the match is not anywhere at all on the list of priorities. And if you hope to do well in any match, you really must practice that way from the beginning or you won't know what kind of time management works best for you. So take whatever amount of time (within the rules) gets you the highest score, and show everyone else how to do it right so they can copy you!
*********************
I think Larry referenced what I wrote before about the sequence of firing a shot, which I do not claim is either unique to myself nor necessarily the best way for anyone including myself to do it, just a starting point that you should modify as you like...
See the book, "With Winning In Mind", available from various mail-order gun suppliers. It is mostly about tricks to control your attitude so that your subconscious will help you shoot well, but does cover the shot plan idea. If you are going to put the bullet in the same place each time, you need to do it the same way each time. That includes not only the physical motions, but also even having the same thoughts each time, as opposed to random thoughts about things that distract from your shooting.
For example, I don't have a written plan (well I guess I will after this message!), but some time ago I started counting "seconds" between shots/attempts as a way to force myself to wait long enough for recovery. I am actually counting faster than one/second, but anyway, from the time the gun reaches rest position until I start to pick it up is a count of 15, sometimes 20 if I feel I was more tired than usual on the previous shot. The deliberate mental counting prohibits other thoughts. The following is for air pistol, open sights, with eyeglass iris...
Beforecount: Set feet in proper position. This varies between people, but my left foot is slightly BEHIND straight line to the target, i.e. turned about 95 degrees off the firing line. Back foot nearly parallel to line, front foot turned 15 degrees toward target. Then I check "drift", i.e. what happens to my arm (the back sight) when I try to pull the trigger? If my arm drifts left during the shot, then I turn one toe (whichever is more comfortable) a little to the right; or toward left if drift was right.
Count 1: Head straight with body (not toward target), eyes closed, no action. This is to rest hand/arm/eyes. Force deeper than usual breathing to speed recovery from previous shot.
Count 11: Turn head and look at target. No hand action. The time from 11 until achieving sights-on-target, about 10 seconds, is sufficient for the eye floaters to settle out of the way after previous movement. Still resting hand/arm.
Count 15: Begin lifting gun to target, end counting, start sequence (in order but NOT thinking of letters, just DO the following always in the same order...
a) Raise sights to target. Since this is open sights, raise the front sight high so I can see it. While raising arm, allow upper body to move back so it stays in balance, minimum effort from waist and back muscles.
b) Lower front sight (and usually the whole gun) so front sight is in the rear notch and roughly aligned with the target. Simultaneous and what I am actually thinking about, check trigger-finger and grip feel. The grip must have same complete hand contact as the previous good shot, and the trigger finger must be in same exact position both vertical and horizontal. Trigger can be adjusted now, but if the grip is off I need to go back down and start over (but no need to wait 15 seconds). Notice that these checks cannot be done until after the gun is in shooting position, everything feels different in rest position.
bb) Somewhere during this step is where I stop breathing so I can hold the sights still. I still have not decided whether it is best to freeze my breath muscles with airway open, or close the airway and allow some pressure from inside. Usually I am not paying attention to this so I don't know what I really do, but I think it's airway-open and I might continue to exhale slowly. In either case, I find that keeping about 2/3 breath helps to lift my arm and also allows greater time for the shot, compared with exhausting most of the air.
c) Fine alignment of REAR sight with the target, FIRST. This is necessary because wrist adjustment to bring the sights into alignment changes the position of the front sight but not the rear. If the front sight is aligned first, then wrist adjustment just results in the whole gun being off-target. Rear-sight alignment is done by locking the shoulder in approximate correct position, then moving upper body from the waist for fine adjustments.
d) Wrist adjustment to bring the front sight into line. Check both horizontal and vertical sight alignment. I usually do horiz first, then keep concentrating on vertical during the shot because this direction gives me the most trouble.
e) Just before firing, squeeze grip tighter than before, and check that sights are still aligned. This is necessary because firing with loose grip allows the gun to wobble more and spreads the group, but keeping a tight grip all the time makes my hand tired.
f) I have a 2-stage trigger. To this point, I have had only very light trigger-finger pressure. Take up the first-stage motion and feel the 2nd-stage stop, while "experiencing" the direction of pull and watching the sight alignment. Direction of pull should be the same as I remember from previous good shots, AND there should be absolutely no responding motion from the sights. This ensures that as I complete the pull through second stage, the direction of pull will not move the front sight off target. (Remember the back sight is already not going to move if my toe position is correct!)
g) Fire the shot, smoothly increasing pressure through the second stage until the gun fires. Ideally I will see that there is no motion, or possibly a very slight vertical motion, at the time of firing.
An "attempt" is a shot that I didn't fire because it didn't look good enough; treat same as a fired shot and start over. I can usually nearly freeze my aim point, but sometimes it stops off-target and by the time I get it aligned, too much time has gone by and it is too shaky so quit. Other times "drift" prevents my shot and I need to adjust toe position and try again.
I compared my 15-count time with the best shooters at the USA Shooting national championships. Nearly all the top shooters use the same 15-count time that I do, I don't know if they count it deliberately. There is one who consistently waits only 10-count; but "haste makes waste" indeed, this is not sufficient for recovery and the next attempt usually also fails, with the result that he runs out of time at the end of the match! You will know if your count is correct, if you feel your heart beating, it will be fast when you run out of breath on a shot, but you can feel it slow to normal speed just before the end of the proper waiting period. Additional waiting time will not help the cardiovascular system, but might be necessary for further arm/hand recovery.
All the above is just what I am doing now. I am still constantly working on ways to improve the sequence. All shooters are different, and your best procedure might be substantially different than mine. Also my procedure is different for different guns, such as dot sight or shooting a rifle.
All that looks complicated and it is! There is no way you can set up a step-by-step shot plan and just follow it to hit the 10-ring. Rather, you should analyze what you are doing now, decide which ONE thing to change, and then practice that one change until it becomes automatic. If you choose wisely, your score will already be improved! Then decide what to change next, and continue the process without limit.
********************
To the above previous writing, I add the following information that came largely from a conversation with Don Nygord...
The trigger should be pulled subconsciously while you concentrate on getting the sights aligned with the target. This is a lot like riding a bike or just plain walking; trigger pull is difficult at first, but once you learn it you don't think about it any more, just do it while thinking about where you want to go.
However, if you just aim at the target and don't think about the trigger, then nothing will happen and you will eventually get tired and have to put down the gun. You have to start increasing trigger pressure in such a way that the gun fires exactly as the sights come into perfect alignment (actually slightly earlier but moving in that direction), because you won't be able to maintain alignment long enough to pull the trigger.
What I do now, is increase trigger pressure as the gun moves toward alignment, and decrease pressure as natural wobble takes it away. So I have a varying trigger pressure that corresponds to how well I like the sight picture, and if I have it calibrated right, the gun will fire as excellent sight picture is achieved, scoring a ten. I do not yet usually do this subconsciously, but am working on it, I think all I need is some more practice - one doesn't learn to ride a bike in a day. Sometimes it does work marvelously well, I am fairly sure the concept is correct.
Calibration of your trigger finger takes place during initial dry-fire and (for air pistol) sighter shots, and is maintained on each shot. It is important to have identical grip and trigger finger placement for every shot, else the apparent trigger pull will vary and you will not be able to accurately judge the correct pressure to fire the shot.
Enjoy!
- Benjamin
From: ShooterTom@aol.com
Subject: HOMEMADE BARREL DE-FOULER - HOW TO MAKE AND USE
Date: Tue 1/11/00 5:06 AM
Hello All,
Here is the info on making an inexpensive home-made version of the commercial barrel fouling remover.
Essentially you will be making a simple electro-plating device with an option to have a visual signal as to the status of the plating. This works equally as well as the commercial unit but does not have all the bells and whistles telling you how the process is going.
What you need:
Radio Shack:
Three "D" cell battery holder cat #270-396A or equivalent (you Can use up to four "D" cells to get 6 volts) about $2.50
Three alkaline "D" cells
Two Alligator Clips such as #270-347 or similar About $2.50
36" long TIG welding rod in stainless steel from local welding shop. Get 3/32" and 1/8" diameters at a cost of about $1.00 each. If you have trouble obtaing the stainless TIG rod you can go to the local hobby shop and get the same sizes in steel piano wire, which works fine except that it can rust. Cost is a bit less.
O-Rings to match rod diameters. You need three per rod. See you local hardware or plumbing shop. Typically about $0.25 each.
A small piece of shrink tubing (Radio Shack 278-1627 $2.00) about an inch long for one end of each rod (chamber end) to insulate it.
Neoprene rubber tapered plugs to fit into chambers. Generally Home Depot will have these in a variety of sizes. $0.50 each
18 to 22 ga. Insulated stranded flexible wire in both (preferably) red and black to indicate polarity. About 3 feet of each needed. Buy at Radio Shack or scrounge some.
Flashlight bulb #272-1125A (Optional) Not needed but can be used to indicate that the current is flowing. Bulb will glow dimly when the fouling is being removed and go out when it is removed. If the bulb glows brightly, it indicates a short between the barrel and the welding rod.
Fluid- - Use the Outers Lead or Copper solutions as appropriate. The lead solution is apparently lead acetate, ammonium acetate and water. The copper solution is apparently copper acetate, ammonium acetate and water. I use the Outers solutions. There is a homemade solution for lead and copper that has been suggested but I have not used it. This solution is apparently mostly intended to carry electricity but based on the components, it may also act as a cleaner itself. 25 % household ammonia; 25% white vinegar; 50% distilled water. I cannot vouch for this, as I have never used it. Sounds like it should work though.
TO USE THE CLEANER
Clean the barrel to remove powder fouling and then thoroughly de-oil the barrel by using a couple patches soaked with lighter fluid or a good de-greaser, dry with a dry patch. Put three "O" rings on the rod as appropriate, near the top, middle and bottom. Negative side of the battery holder should be wired with the black wire and an alligator clip. The Positive side should use the Red wire and Alligator clip. If you elect to use the Flashlight Bulb option, insert it into the negative (black) wire where convenient by cutting the black wire and soldering one of the cut ends to the base of the bulb and the other cut end to the metal side of the bulb.
As an option I slip a short piece of auto heater or some other hose of the appropriate diameter over the end of the barrel so the solution can fill to the end of the barrel and then some. Plug the chamber with the neoprene plug. Fill the barrel with the solution. Insert the rod with the "O" rings slowly until it bottoms against the neoprene plug. Connect the black wire to the welding rod and the red wire to a convenient part of the sporting firearm.
If you used the flashlight bulb, you should see a dim glow. If you did not use the bulb, you may see some bubbles surfacing which is a visual indication that the de-fouling is going on. When the bulb goes out or after several hours pass (possibly no bubble activity now), the barrel should be free of metal fouling. You will probably see evidence of copper or lead plating on the welding rod. This can be scraped off or steel wooled off the welding rod. If using other than the TIG stainless welding rod, you should protect the now cleaned steel rod against rust until the next time you use it.
Note: Some sort of a low voltage (6v or less) power supply can be used in place of the "D" cells but the power supply must put out a fairly low milli-amp current. Some power supplies put out nearly an amp or more which is too much current. If my batteries are dead sometimes I use a Power Supply meant for R/C model planes that has constant voltage and adjustable milli-amp output with a meter.
Good luck with this. I have had great success with the device on an 1888 Trapdoor Springfield Rifle with 100 years of heavy leading in the barrel, with the barrel of a S&W 52 that leaded heavily just in front of the chamber, a HS Victor (one of the last made in CT) that had a barrel that leaded badly and several military rifles that metal fouled due to somewhat rough bores. Also even on a high-velocity air rifle-an amazing amount of lead came out of that .177 bore!!! Worked like a charm on them all.
Let me know how you like it please!!!!!!!
Tom
From: Dennis Willing [shoot3gun@yahoo.com]
Subject: [bullseye-l] 45 Accuracy
Date: Wed Mon 5/8/00 10:18 AM
My Ransom Rest is in and I did the initial testing on my Curtis gun, built in Sept. '99. The weather was mostly sunny and the temp about 80 degrees. Wind was 5-10 with gusts to about 15. With the wind, it was not the best testing weather but good enough for the initial phase. However, it still produced results that are worthy of competition loads.
I tested 40 loads using 3 powders. Using 231 powder I began at 4.6 grains and loaded to and including 5.3 grains. Each load was increased by 1/10th grain. These loads were done with 185 and 200 grain bullets, for 16 loads total. This same process was done with WST, beginning at 4.0 grains through 4.5 grains for 12 more loads.
And once again with Titegroup, starting with 3.8 grains through 4.3 grains, for another 12 loads. Each load was hand weighed, using a Dillon electronic scale, and assembled on a Dillon 550B press.
All loads were taper crimped at .470 inches.
The rest was settled with 10 rounds of an old load I had that was a 200 grain bullet with 5.2 grains of 231. After each 10 rounds in the testing process, a pull through one piece barrel cleaner was used, pulling it through only once. Groups were fired on a repair center that was turned around backward with each load and bullet weight recorded on the center.
I selected only a portion of the loads, based on the results, to look at again, any one of which I may elect to disregard before further testing is done. I may narrow final testing down to only half this many. The bullets were made by Bullseye Bullet Casting, here in Michigan. Measurements are inside to inside of the extreme bullets of the group, unless otherwise stated.
- 4.7 gr of 231, 200 gr bullet - 2.5"x2.5"; the interesting part of this group was 6 bullets were in a tight group that would be completely enclosed by a box, 1 1/8x1. Two high flyers and 2 low flyers opened this group.
- 5.0 gr of 231, 185 gr bullet - This test was interesting because it produced 2 distinct groups, side by side, with less than 1/2" separating them. One hole contained 4 shots that would completely be contained in a box 1x1 1/8, the second group, 6 shots, could be completely contained in a box 1 7/16x1 1/4. The entire group, using inside measurements was 1 1/4x2. All shots, in spite of the 2 groups, would score in the x-ring.
- 3.9 gr Titegroup, 185 gr bullet - 1 1/8x1 3/8, with one flyer causing the group to be this "big". Nine shots were in a group on 3/8" high by 1 3/8 wide. All shots would score in the x-ring.
- 3.9 gr Titegroup, 200 gr bullet - 1 3/4x1 5/8. This group also had a flyer, which if disregarded, would measure 1 3/4x 1/2" high.
Note the small height of the groups using 3.9 gr of Titegroup. I was truly amazed. These groups were wide in comparison to their height but would still score well. On this target, all shots except the flyer would score x-ring.
- 4.2 gr Titegroup, 185 gr bullet - 2 3/16x 2/1/2. Two flyers caused the extreme size of this group. Eight shots measure 1 3/8x 7/8.
- 4.0 gr WST, 185 gr bullet - 1 1/2x1. Two flyers wide right caused the size of this group. Otherwise it measures only 1/4" wide by 1 " high. Keep in mind these are INSIDE measurements. This is a high narrow group with all shots scoring x-ring.
- 4.2 gr WST, 185 gr bullet - 1 1/2x2.
- 4.2 gr WST, 200 gr bullet - 3 1/8x 1 3/8. This group was opened up by 3 flyers. Seven shots measure 1x1 1/4.
- 4.4 gr WST, 200 gr bullet - 3/4"x 3/4" for 8 shots which can be completely contained in a box 1 1/2X 1 3/4 inches. The two flyers open this up to 2x1 3/4.
All in all, these are some pretty amazing groups. You must keep in mind though that these are INSIDE measurements. About an inch can be added to these measurements for outside results. If you look at the overall outside dimensions of the group they will naturally appear larger. A ten ring template was used to overlay each of the targets. In all of the above groups, all shots would score 10s. If using an x-ring template and centering it over the main body of the group, on some targets the flyers would have been 9s while others, all shots would have been an X.
You must also remember that 30 loads weren't worth looking at, so only 25% produced reasonable results. I can photograph any of these targets with my digital camera and e-mail it to anyone who would like to see a particular target.
Dennis Willing
From: Dennis Willing [shoot3gun@yahoo.com]
Subject: [bullseye-l] 45 Accuracy
Date: Wed 6/7/00 7:35 AM
There have been many posts lately on the accuracy of 45 pistols, which I have been doing some testing on lately.
I have been fortunate in that I received a new wad gun built by Mike Curtis in September and yet another Curtis wad gun last Friday. 40 loads were tested in each gun using 185gr and 200gr bullets, and 3 differnt powders. The results of the best loads for the September gun were recently published on this list.
On Saturday I tested the second gun with identical loads as used in the first. With the September gun I had some outstanding groups, some of which were 10 rounds x-ring. I expected nothing less with the second gun. Afterall, the slides and frames were identical Capsian, with the frames having consecutive serial numbers. They were built by the same pistolsmith using identical parts. They look so identical I had to write down which serial number was which gun, less I get the mixed up. I was prepared for some outstanding groups with the second gun.
After testing was done, I wondered what went wrong. Not one load tested good in the second gun. I thought I had set up the Ransom wrong or committed some other error. These test results simply could not be right.
he test target Mike sent with the gun was done with factory Federal and was 1 5/8 inches. A load using the Nosler bullet grouped 2 1/16th inches. Before removing the gun from the rest I put 10 rounds each of Federal, Remington, and Winchester match ammo through it. The results were one hole x-ring groups. With Winchester ammo, 9 shots were in such a tight hole that you could place it inside the x-ring and not touch the line. The 10th round, although not inside the group, would have scored an X.
On Monday, Mike Curtis called to make sure I had received the gun and was happy. I discussed the tests with him. He told me that once in a while he gets a barrel that just doesn't shoot lead. Apparently I have one and will have to feed it jacketed bullets, at least at 50 yds.
I am extremely happy with Mike's work and the gun, it just needs a different diet.
Yesterday, it Mike Snyder or Mike S, that made a post that too many shooters pay a lot for these guns and then feed it any old load, believeing it will work, but doesn't. They fail to take advantage of the craftsmanship that went into the building the gun. He's right.
hese two tests show just how different two guns can be. What works in my gun may not work in yours. Heck, what works in my gun #1 won't work in my gun #2.
e sure you do some testing before choosing your load. You may have that 1.5" gun but don't know it. With that said, I have to decide to shoot factory or the Nosler bullets in gun #2. In the past I paid scant attention to the posts regarding the Nosler loads because I didn't need the load at that time. Apparently I do now. Does anyone have a good starting point for me? I have 231, Titegroup, and WST on hand. I'll buy the bullets at Camp Perry and probably some VVN310 too. Testing will be done later this summer. Until then, gun #2 will be a back up, using factory ammo.
If anyone is interested, I shot the latest test over a chronograph and recorded the data. I have high, low, and average velocity, as well as extreme spread and standard deviation. My batteries were going dead toward the end of the testing so some data for the Titegroup loads, between about 4.2 and 4.5 grains was lost. Otherwise I should be able to help you out.
Dennis Willing
35 days to Camp Perry
From: Benjamin
McLeod [bennnancy@erols.com]
Subject: [bullseye-l] Check Out Your 1911
Date:Wed 5/31/00 1:25 AM
The following are some things you can look at on a match 1911 to determine if you think it is tight enough for best accuracy...
A match bushing, like a match barrel, is really no different than standard parts, except that they are made oversize so that they can be (must be) hand fitted to the gun. I wouldn't expect special markings, the fitting is more important than the maker.
Only the front end of the barrel matters as far as the bushing is concerned. The rest doesn't contact the bushing in lockup, and is normally quite loose during cycling (there is a slight taper or step in the outer diameter of the barrel), so whatever is an inch back won't affect accuracy or life of the gun.
The bottom lugs sit on the slide lock pin and hold the barrel up against the slide. Whether or not any of these parts fit tightly alone doesn't matter, but the barrel should be jammed fairly tightly between them.
Also with just the slide and barrel, the barrel top lugs should have front-and-back play in the slide for proper cycling; the slide will be held forward against the back edges of the barrel lugs by the recoil spring when in battery.
Try putting the gun together without the recoil spring - usually the spring holds things in place so it is difficult to tell how loose they might be. When you hold the slide in place with a light pressure, both the front and back of the barrel should be tight without any play in any direction. Likewise the slide to frame fit should be tight. "Tight" is a relative word - I did some slide fitting on my own inexpensive gun and was happy to reduce the play to about 1/3 what it originally was - you might expect better.
The normal procedure for hand fitting is to fit the slide so tightly that it will not function, then force it to move (perhaps initially with some polishing compound) until it gets loose enough to barely work, as tight as it can be and still function properly. On some guns this initial wear-in is not quite complete and you need to fire a couple hundred rounds of full power ammo to complete the job. The initial wear-in polishes off the high spots and ensures that the tightest spots have at least some substantial area, not just a point contact, so it will be strong enough not to wear out right away.
I would try to make some numerical estimate of visible play in each area, if any, so you can measure it again later and tell someone it's twice what it was.
Each of the bottom lugs should contact the slide lock pin at both the top and the rear edge of the pin, but probably not anywhere else. The radius of the lugs should be smaller than the radius of the pin, so there should be a gap around most of the curve. However, each of these 4 "points" should make contact at the same time. And each "point" should be a line contact, not a point (but not a flat area either), across the width of the lug at that place.
If you have actual point contacts, they will probably wear in soon, and you will have more of a line contact but the back of the barrel will have some wiggle room and not as good accuracy. I have heard that one good way to do this is to cut the lugs just slightly oversize, then polish off the slide lock pin to fit. Then when wear occurs, however long it might take, you can replace the pin with a standard size and it will restore proper tightness without needing a whole new barrel. In lockup the link does nothing and is supposed to be loose, so don't expect it to fit tightly to its pins at either end. It only helps get the back of the barrel up and down during cycling. On the original 1911's the link holds the barrel up against the slide in lockup (to the extent that it is held at all), but on a match fitted gun the top of the barrel lug does this function more precisely.
To center the firing pin, the top lugs must be fit to the slide so that the barrel lines up with the firing pin. Then the bottom lugs must be separately fit to keep it tightly in position during lockup.
Some match barrels are not intended for these fittings to be done separately, so either one is done alone for a tight barrel and the center falls wherever it does. This is common, and as long as the gun fires reliably, off center strikes don't matter. Firing strike position has nothing to do with slide/frame fit, which is done before even looking at the barrel.
- Benjamin McLeod
From: Ed Masaki [masaki@pixi.com]
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] bushing to barrel fit
Date: Sun 2/20/00 12:37 AM
At 09:58 PM 2/19/00 EST, Oneillwj@aol.com wrote:
>I noticed a VERY slight up and down movement of my bbl in my 1911 Kart NM and
>bushing. Colt Ser. 80. Very tight gun, Les Baer fitted the bushing and bbl.
> Bushing requires a wrench. When in battery there is no side to side
>movement, but I inserted a length of dowel in the muzzle, and when up and
>down force is exerted, I perceived what looks to be maybe 2/1000" up and
>down. I'm only guessing at this figure, it's VERY small. I flooded the
>interface of the bbl and bush. with oil, so the movement appears visually
>more apparent, might be a magnifying effect of the liquid. The gun will
>shoot <1" @ 25 yds. off bags, 50 yds best I ever did was <3". I understand
>the relationships involved in reliable and tight lockup, proper link camming
>and lug fit, am I to expect NO movement of the bbl within the bushing when
in
>battery, or at least should there be some?
>Thank you. Bill in Pa.
When the gun is in the lock mode/ hammer back position you should not have movements where you said.
The bushing can be very tight like needing a wrench to move does not mean that there is no movement. Put the slide in a vice and just install the bushing in the proper position. Now insert the barrel muzzle in the bushing from the front and put pressure up an down, side to side and see if there is a movement between the slide an bushing. This is more critical in accuracy.
This is why I tell shooters that while they are shooting slow fire not to touch the forward of the dust cover nor touching the slide. Shot after shot the slide is supposed to return to the same position. Placeing the front of the slide on the bench carelessly can make a difference from a X to a 10 or 9ring at 50 yds.
The looser the slide to frame fit gets the more you will notice this. All it needs is the slide lock pin to be disturbed and the lock up changes.
(Just my opinion) ED
From: KARLRY@aol.com
Subject: Re: [bullseye-l] factory match 45 velocity
Date: Tue 2/29/00 9:19 AM
In a message dated 02/29/2000 4:39:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, Oneillwj@aol.com
writes:
<< Does anyone know the velocity of a premium grade factory match 45 acp load?
Thanks, Bill >>
Bill
You didn't tell us what bullet weight you were using 185gr or 230gr or ? So here are a couple of answers based on my testing:
| Manufacturer |
Crimp
|
OAL
|
AV
|
| Federal - 185gr MCWC |
.471-.472
|
1.166-1.167
|
799.8
- 811.0
|
| Remington-185gr MCWC |
.471
|
1.165
|
775.8
|
| Winchester-Target-230gr |
.468
|
1.266-1.268
|
829.4
|
| Federal Hi-Pwr-230gr |
.471
|
1.266-1.268
|
865.7
|
Hope the answer your looking for is in these stats somewhere!!! Enjoy! Karl
From: Tony Kidd [ybaverage@email.msn.com]
Subject: [bullseye-l] Ejection problem cures
Date: Wed 4/26/00 9:15 AM
Your ejection problem can have many causes.
The extractor should be inspected to insure it has the proper tension.It should hold a dummy round against the breechface when the pistol is out of battery. To inspect this turn the slide assembly upside down and slide a dummy round behind the extractor. It should have a slight resistance. Enough to hold the dummy in place but not so much as to make it difficult to insert.
When satisfied with the tension and with the dummy still in place against the breechface slide the barrel rearward and chamber the dummy.This next part is very important. Unlock the barrel from its locking lug recesses (only enough to clear the slide)and slide it toward the muzzle. This is where the empty case sits when cycling rearward on its path to the ejector. Make sure that the extractor is still holding the dummy at this point.
If the extractor has been rounded to facilitate smoother feeding it will probably release the dummy. If so replace the extractor with an "unmodified" component and tune as earlier mentioned.
You should next tune your extended ejector(Brown-Wilson). Using the above technique chamber a dummy round in the slide assembly and place it on the frame assembly. Let the barrel unlock as you move the slide rearward. Place a very slight resistance on the dummy with your index finger as it comes into contact with the extended ejector.
Notice which direction or path the dummy is trying to take on its way out of the ejection port. It generally will be too low and run into the lower wall of the port.
To adjust this you must lower the point on the extended ejector(the lower the point the higher the ejection) until the dummy is following a clear path out of the port. If the point is too high your case will hit the port wall if too low as with standard ejectors the case will hit the scope mount.
Don't let dings on your scope mount fool you into thinking that the ejection path is too high. Too low of an ejection path will cause empty cases to hit the port wall and then bounce straight up into your scope.Ultimately bouncing back into your pistol causing a stove pipe.
A lowered ejection port always helps but will not cure improper tuning. To run 100% you must go through the above steps.
Good Shooting
Tony Kidd
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